Rafale en Inde

[ironclaude]

Comme dirait un ancien Président de la République:

" Mais qu'est-ce qu'ils veulent ? nos c....... sur un plateau ? "

[OPIT]

Si on fait le bilan, il y plus de forces plus ou moins occultes qui visent à faire échouer ce contrat que l'inverse. L'approche de l'échéance ne fait qu'exciter les uns et les autres, avec un rapport signal/bruit qui tend rapidement vers zéro.

[warbird2000]

rechercher




On ne peut pas complètement exclure des divergences entre l'armée et son mindef

D'accord avec toi, si c'était l'armée de l'air Indienne le contrat serait déjà signé depuis longtemps.
Ils ont quand même sélectionné le Rafale, c'est du coté politique que cela coince.

[ironclaude]

Oui, et puis, une fois le contrat signé, il faut commencer à payer...

Alors que jusqu'à présent probablement les décideurs indiens ont surtout touché...

[warbird2000]

des nouvelles pas bonnes :(

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 0148/.html


On reproche toujours à Dassault de ne pas endosser la responsablilité pour les Rafale produits en Inde
On reproche aussi à Dassault ne pas respecter ses engagements en matière de prix

Mais en cas d'échec, cela ne profiterait pas au Typhoon

[ergo]

12 Janvier .... il est pas frai ton poisson

[warbird2000]

12 Janvier .... il est pas frai ton poisson

Ah désolé pour ma distraction.

Comme on dit alors pas de nouvelles; bonne nouvelles

[MS Galileo]

Dassault ne prendra pas la responsabilité globale du contrat en Inde (Collet-Billon DGA)

[Deltafan]

Ca sent le sapin...

[ergo]

C'est une affirmation ou un retour des négociations ?

[tanguy1991]

A ce rythme, ce serra peut-être bien la Belgique le dernier potentiel client a l'export...

[MS Galileo]

mise au point :

After months of watching Dassault Aviation being brow-beaten in the Indian press, French arms procurement agency DGA defended its contractor, asserting that a 2012 agreement to provide Rafale fighter jets to New Delhi never committed the company to guarantee aircraft manufactured in India.“Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract. It is a co-management setup,” says French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon, who was clear that France will not assume full liability for the HAL-produced aircraft. “It cannot be a problem, because it was not in the request for proposals (RFP).”
Speaking to reporters during an annual media address Feb. 9 in Paris, France's arms procurement chief said the €10.2 billion ($12 billion) agreement – which has been under negotiation for more than three years – calls for the first 18 of 126 Rafale jets to be built in France. After that, India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would take over production of the remaining 108 aircraft.[...]

http://aviationweek.com/blog/french-mod ... ian-rafale

[JulietBravo]

Merci pour cette information beaucoup plus complète !

[kekelekou]

C'est clair que le problème n'est pas franchement du côté français. La question est surtout de savoir à quel points les officiels indiens sont de mauvaise foi (ou pas) et capables (ou pas) de faire capoter les négos sur un point qui n'est pas au cahier des charges!

[Oxitom]

Et qui je penses ne sera assumé par aucun autre constructeur.

[prof.566]

Mon petit doigt me dit que Al Sissi a refusé une offre alléchante pour 24 Mig-35.

[Komrad]

Et qui je penses ne sera assumé par aucun autre constructeur.

Je le pense également!

L'offre Dassault est (ou était) très intéressante... en particulier la chaine d'assemblage et tout le support du constructeur.

J'avoue que je ne comprends pas les indiens.

[kekelekou]

Est-ce qu'ils jouent un dernier (et énorme) coup de poker, en espérant que la nervosité fasse faire n'importe quoi aux Français? Du style : s'ils prennent peur, ils acceptent la garantie, et nous Indiens avons tout gagné; s'ils refusent, tant pis, on aura tenté le coup!

[ergo]

avec l'egypte qui va signer ... les négociations Inde vont etre un peu plus ... cool

[Azrayen]

Est-ce qu'ils jouent un dernier (et énorme) coup de poker, en espérant que la nervosité fasse faire n'importe quoi aux Français? Du style : s'ils prennent peur, ils acceptent la garantie, et nous Indiens avons tout gagné; s'ils refusent, tant pis, on aura tenté le coup!

Ça plus le fait qu'ils ont "peut-être" des souvenirs douloureux (financièrement) de précédentes productions locales sous licence etrangère : ratés locaux obligeant à faire appel au constructeur d'origine. Si hors contrat, ce genre de presta doit vite chiffrer...

Deux bonnes raisons pour l'Inde de le tenter en effet.

Mais si un autre prospect devient client, ça permet à DA et partenaires d'être moins aux abois... et moins enclins à avaler ce qui semble depuis le début être une couleuvre de belle taille !

[MS Galileo]

Un point de vue sur le pourquoi du comment

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 183_1.html

[garance]

un autre article qui fait ou tente de faire le point:

"Aero India provides a unique opportunity to have a close look at the eclectic mix of Russian, American and European platforms operated by the Indian air force. However, a keen observer will look beyond the cold war-era aircraft on show and notice the service’s transformation from a tactical air force to an air arm that by the end of this decade will be able to project power well beyond India’s borders.

The air force is, however, preoccupied with ensuring that its aircraft upgrade programmes are accelerated, and that it receives the necessary budget allocations to preserve and maintain the large number of legacy platforms it continues to operate. Of course, no mention of India’s air force and its future plans would be complete without a word on its prized procurement programme, the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA).

February 2015 marks the third anniversary since contract negotiations began with Dassault for 126 Rafales to meet the air force’s MMRCA requirement, and a decision is likely this year. In a December 2014 TV interview, India’s new defence minister Manohar Parrikar said he would look to speed up the process, but added that “irrespective of anything, the request for proposals’ [RFP] terms have to be met and they cannot be diluted”.

Parikkar also ruled out the possibility of Eurofighter re-entering the competition, saying “how can you consider another plane when L1 [the lowest bidder] has been determined; the rules do not permit that”.

However, Eurofighter remains hopeful that it can get back into MMRCA. The consortium had a modest pavilion at 2013’s Aero India.

“The Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and the related European governments fully respect India’s procurement process,” Eurofighter said in an email to Flightglobal. “We are confident that we can meet the requirements of the government of India and we are ready to re-engage any time they should invite us.”

News from India concerning the MMRCA contract negotiation saga is likely behind Eurofighter’s hopes of a come-from-behind win.

Dassault is reportedly dubious about being held responsible for the 108 fighters Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will produce under licence.

“Dassault can deliver on the promised transfer of technology as per the RFP,” says Teal Group vice-president analysis Richard Aboulafia. He adds, however, that: “I don’t think anyone would assume responsibility for HAL-built fighters. That would be a foolish move.”

As per the initial plans, the air force was to receive its first aircraft within three years of a contract signature, and all 126 fighters were to be delivered within 11 years. If Dassault concludes the Rafale contract this year, the air force would receive the first of 18 “fly-away” aircraft in 2018, and the last of 108 aircraft built by HAL in 2026. The state-owned airframer’s track record, however, suggests that it will complete Rafale deliveries only by 2029-2030.

Commenting on the future of the Rafale, Aboulafia says if Dassault cannot close the Indian contract and loses contests in Qatar, the United Arab Emirates or Kuwait, “they’ll be stuck at 11 per year with French procurement, which is where they’ve been since production began”.

“They’ll survive, at least until the early years of the next decade,” he adds.

DREXCOM RdP 5984 RELEASED document issued from Dassault Aviation repository. Page 28 of 30



In an apparent attempt to pressure Dassault to wind-up negotiations, Parikkar says the choice to induct more Sukhoi Su-30MKI’s “was always available”, and that India could “upgrade the Su-30 and make it more capable and increase availability” as an alternative to the Rafale.

The air force expects to receive all 272 Su-30MKI’s on order from Hindustan Aeronautics by 2020, forming 13 operational squadrons of the type. The 150th Su-30MKI manufactured by HAL (SB 190) was delivered in January. Poor serviceability continues to plague the fleet, with aircraft availability below 60-65% fleet-wide in the air force. Each aircraft is expected to complete 240 flying hours per year, although at present less than half this number is being achieved.

The air force received its first overhauled Su-30MKI (SB 027) from HAL in January. The overhaul facility at HAL Nashik is the first to be set up for the type globally. HAL chairman RK Tyagi says the airframer will now act as “a single window original equipment manufacturer for supporting the Su-30MKI fleet”.

“We are confident of improving the serviceability and ramping up capacity,” he adds.

New Su-30MKI’s delivered by HAL are estimated to cost $60 million each, with a comprehensive 14 year/1,500h overhaul costing the operator just under $20 million. With a second overhauled fighter now due for delivery, HAL says it can overhaul 15 aircraft annually at Nashik. Presently the total technical life of an Su-30MKI is 6,000h/25 years, and time between overhaul for its NPO Saturn AL31FP engines is 1,000h, with a total technical life of 2,000h. The time between overhaul and total technical life for the thrust vector nozzle is half of that of the engine.

Modernisation work also continues on 49 Dassault Mirage 2000s, in a $1.8 billion upgrade to what the airframer calls the “I/TI standard”. The Mirage was first inducted into squadron service in 1985, and then designated as the Mirage 2000 H/TH. India’s Mirage 2000 upgrade is being handled jointly by Thales and Dassault Aviation, says Antoine Caput, managing director at Thales India.

“The Indian air force is extremely satisfied as each step has been undertaken in strict accordance with the terms of contract,” Caput says. “It is important to underline that there have been no delays where Thales is concerned.”

The next major milestone for the programme will be certification by the air force, which is expected by the end of this year. “Additionally, the development of the [final operational clearance] standard and integrating indigenous equipment has begun,” says Caput. With the approval of the first upgrade kit, the production of serial kits has started, and preparations are already under way on the fifth aircraft, which will be upgraded by HAL in Bengaluru.

In addition to the Mirage fleet upgrade, Thales also supplies the air force with the Vicon 91 reconnaissance pods, avionics and Inertial Navigation and Global Positioning System (INGPS) for its RAC MiG-21, MiG-27 and Su-30MKIs, as well as identification friend or foe systems and INGPS for its MiG-29s.

Meanwhile, upgrade work on 63 MiG-29 interceptors to the UPG multirole standard – equivalent to the MiG-29SMT – continues, and an estimated 50-plus aircraft are yet to receive the upgrade package. In November 2014, Pune-based Taneja Aerospace won a contract for structural retrofit and life extension work on 33 aircraft.

This marks a major foray into aircraft upgrades by Indian private sector firms, although the technology and upgrade kits are provided by the OEM. As per the RFP, the work involves the installation of air-to-air refuelling probes and a dorsal fuel tank, accommodation of new line replacement units and strengthening of the airframe to extend the total technical life of upgraded aircraft."

[ironclaude]

Un point de vue sur le pourquoi du comment

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 183_1.html

En gros, ce serait l'IAF qui considérerait que HAL présente de dangereux problèmes de compétence et de qualité et qui voudrait pour cette raison que ce soit Dassault qui supervise et signe les avions fabriqués chez eux...
Eh ben on n'est pas couchés.

[jojo]

Ils n'ont qu'à acheter des avions produits en France, ça permettra de monter les cadences et peut être même faire des économies d'échelle

[gillouf1]

Ils n'ont qu'à acheter des avions produits en France, ça permettra de monter les cadences et peut être même faire des économies d'échelle

Difficile de satisfaire les opérationnels et les politiques (et bien souvent ce sont les seconds qui gagnent car c'est eux qui ont l'argent et ils y connaissent que dalle...).

@+